S04E05: The Unique Canadian Language Services Market

Intro

Hello and welcome to the Translation Company Talk, a weekly podcast show focusing on translation services and the language industry. The Translation Company Talk covers topics of interest for professionals engaged in the business of translation, localization, transcription, interpreting, and language technology. The Translation Company Talk is sponsored by HybridLynx. Your host is Sultan Ghaznawi with today’s episode.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Welcome to this episode of the Translation Company Talk podcast. Today we are going to cover something that we haven’t touched upon before and it is very important for me in particular. We are going to speak about the unique nature of language services market here in Canada where I’m based at. To speak with me about this topic, I have invited Mary Kazamias, who has a very interesting view of this market and offers her ideas and suggestions to succeed in this diverse and this unique Canadian language landscape.

 

Mary Kazamias is the Chief Executive Officer for TRSB, which is a language services provider based in Montreal, Canada. Prior to her role as the CEO, she served as a business development manager for this company for 14 years. From 1994 to 2005, she was a manager at SDL International. Mary has experience and expertise in management of language services across several industries. She has a BA in Translations from Concordia University in Montreal and an MBA from HSE University and McGill University in Montreal.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary, welcome to the Translation Company Talk podcast.

 

Mary Kazamias

Thank you, Sultan. Thank you for having me.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

For those of us who are not familiar with you, please introduce yourself and tell us what you do.

 

Mary Kazamias

My name is Mary Kazamias. I’m the CEO of TRSB, Transactions Serge-Belaire, based out of Montreal and I’ve been in the industry for several decades now and specifically at TRSB for 17 years actually.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Exciting, exciting. Now, Mary, how did you join the localization and translation industry? Was it by design or was it a calculated choice?

 

Mary Kazamias

I would say that it was a mix of the two and a little bit of luck as well. I was fortunate enough to do my BA in translation, but as part of a co-op program and that gave me internships at both public and private institutions. And so, I was able to really see what the translation localization industry was. And at the end of my last internship, I was offered a full-time position.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Just to follow up, before you joined localization and translation, what were you thinking this industry is about and did it live up to expectations?

 

Mary Kazamias

I honestly thought it was more about providing really good translation for any type of material, even books, you know, literature. I really didn’t make the distinction between professional translation services and what an LSP really, really does in the B2B and B2C space. And so, it was a real eye-opener when I did get to do my first internship and really understand that what an LSP is doing is offering business solutions to their customers. And that’s what really, I think, enticed me more so than purely the language, the linguistic aspect.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary, since you’ve joined this industry and that’s been, you said, close to 17 years being in this role in this company alone, please share some of the significant events in this industry that stood out to you and affected you in a certain way, positive or negative.

 

Mary Kazamias

Well, I think that, you know, if we go back several decades, the introduction of computer assisted translation tools, that was something that happened actually a little late here in Canada as compared to the rest of the world. I was fortunate to be working at a company that was really in the forefront of those technologies and got to see how it completely transformed the way translators were working. They went from working with dictionaries and a pen and the occasional, you know, word processing program to really being able to up their game in terms of efficiency, leveraging and processing much higher volumes than they could ever possibly do. And so that happened several decades ago, and it really had a huge, huge impact on how LSP approaches a translation project, what they can do to serve the customer’s needs and how the linguists themselves had to rethink how they worked and adapt. So that was a huge, I would say that had a major impact on our industry. And I felt it because I was really in operations at the forefront of it all, executing on the change management for our linguists. And it was really interesting to watch the resistance at first.

 

And, you know, years later, you realize, goodness, how did we do it? How did we do it with the amount of content that’s being produced on a daily basis? It was such a huge transformation for our industry. And I see that also now with the changes or the evolution in AI and machine translation as well.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

I have invited you to speak about the language industry here in Canada. I know that you are a great leader in this industry here. Please give us a high-level view of what this market looks like.

 

Mary Kazamias

Well, it’s pretty distinct, this market, as compared to the rest of the world in terms of language services. First and foremost, yes, we have regulations that do drive a certain amount of volume. But those regulations are based on demand. They’re based on culture. They’re based on identity. And that is a really key difference with a lot of markets, to our neighbours to the south, for example.

 

So that’s one distinction that I think bears mentioning, because at the same time, what it’s created is a whole micro industry of linguists and has also created translation departments within organisations. So, no matter the size of the organisation, there’s always at least a handful of people, if not dozens of people who are responsible for bilingual communications, translation, labelled any which way. At the end of the day, these are people who are responsible for ensuring that both internal and external messaging content of any kind is produced in both languages. So that’s very unique for a lot of countries that do have translation services and translation companies.

 

So, we as an LSP, a lot of times are working with our customers who they themselves have a linguistic services department. They are our clients, really. They are allies as well, because they act as sort of an interim relationship manager and a partner to ensure that we’re all on the same page in terms of terminology, style, what have you.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

You just mentioned regulation, bilingual regulation here in Canada. And that’s actually, in Canada where everything is mandated by law in terms of language, all federal government communication must be available in both English and French. I want you to elaborate in terms of what type of opportunities for localisation does it represent that are unique, that people are not familiar with in other parts of the world?

 

Mary Kazamias

Well, I think that it’s really important to understand that the regulations are both at the federal and at the provincial level, Quebec specifically, as well as other provinces. But it’s really important to underpin that there are regulations for certain types of communications. But at the end of the day, what a lot of businesses need to understand is that when you are operating, you have a target market that is in Canada, you need to be able to reach them. You need to be able to relate to them. And in order to do that, you need to be able to communicate with them in their target language and specifically speaking of French for Canada.

 

So, there’s a huge opportunity. And it’s always been that way. If I’m not mistaken, the statistics are pretty evident in terms of the volume of translation that Canada produces. So not to say that it’s the Eldorado or anything, but I do feel very strongly that the regulations are there to help support and protect the language, the bilingual nature of this country.

 

But at the end of the day, it’s really about ensuring that whether you’re an employee of a federal agency, a provincial agency, an employee of any organization, someone, a consumer who needs to have information in their language, it really covers all matters of information, not just written content, but also audio, also any type of interpretation that the amount of volume and requirements is really, really high because we are such a unique market.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

On that same note, the same notion applies to national enterprises that operate from coast to coast. How do they find the Canadian market different compared to operating with other countries in the Western Hemisphere?

 

Mary Kazamias

My understanding is that if they’re operating in other countries, they would just need to translate the content that is appropriate for that target market and only as needed. In other words, if they have consumers in a specific industry, in a specific market, then there could be regulations for some of them and then for others. It’s really about just making sure that, I don’t know, your instructions for use or your user guide is available in that language so that the consumer can purchase and have that information.

 

Whereas here, the difference is that it’s obligatory. So, any type of packaging, any type of publishing, any type of e-commerce needs to be in both languages, otherwise, you will not be able to sell to those consumers. You will not be able to service them.

 

So, there’s, again, the need to be able to reach your target audience in other markets, in other countries that could be underpinned by some regulation. But here, it really covers the entire scope of all types of information.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary, just to elaborate on that, I would like you to explain to us, or especially our colleagues who are outside Canada, the importance and requirement for Canadian French language across all communications. Why is it so critical and fundamental to Canadian culture and identity?

 

Mary Kazamias

That is a great question and really timely. I think that if we go back in history, the Quebec population, the French-speaking Quebec population, which is roughly, I think Quebec is at 8 million people at this point in time, and the majority are French-speaking. For the longest time, they were ignored by the rest of the government, and they were not really seen or not really heard. And so, regulations came about over time in the 60s and the 70s and up till today to ensure that language is seen and heard, that that culture is seen and heard and is part and parcel of Canadian values and identity. So, the bilingual stature of Canada came about as a way to unify all peoples across the country.

 

And so, when we look at what’s happening today with the Quebec government making certain changes to legislation to ensure that French is not only not forgotten, but encouraged, that it is the language of our province, of this nation, if you will, and that it is important for people to understand that when you come here, this is our language of business. This is the language of government. This is the language of the people.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

As a country, we are proud of our history, culture, identity. And you just talked about that and bilingual nature of our population makeup. Why would it be a challenge, Mary, for international companies to penetrate this market without local partners and local guides?

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Yes, I do realize that there could be perceived barriers to entry for some organizations who decide to take root in Canada and, promote their business and establish themselves in Canada. But I think that if they partner with a local Canadian organization, local Canadian LSP, then what they’re getting is not only a translation, localization team of experts, they’re also getting that target market. So, I often say that we are our own target market. When we translate content, it’s for us. So, we know and understand deeply those nuances, those cultural subtleties that someone coming from the outside and using perhaps, you know, an LSP that doesn’t have French Canadian, English Canadian resources. They don’t understand those differences. And that’s really the crux of localization. It’s really ensuring that your content is and reflects what the local market needs and understands.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

And what are the consequences of not complying with the bilingual laws and regulations here in Canada? What can happen to a company that does not respect it?

 

Mary Kazamias

There are different penalties that are out there at the federal level. There are also penalties that are in place now and actually coming into effect as of June 2023 in Quebec for enterprises who do not follow the enhanced charter of language. There’s a lot of information, a lot of talk about it, but it does cover a wide variety of elements as simple as job postings, how those job postings are displayed, in what language, what they say, as well as any type of contract amongst entities, but also for employees themselves working within an organization that the language of business is French. It covers a wide variety of other components of communication as well. So those penalties can range from three thousand to thirty thousand if I’m not mistaken. And if there are secondary or subsequent infractions, that price tag can increase significantly.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary, given Canada’s geographical demographic makeup, what should enterprises and companies trying to access this market understand beyond just language? Clearly, French translation localization is extremely important, but what else should they take into consideration?

 

Mary Kazamias

I think it’s important to know that when they’re coming to Canada to engage with local partners in terms of legal, in terms of marketing and in terms of localization and translation as well. Just as with any market, when you’re coming to a different one, you should be able to understand the laws, the people, the culture and who you’re going after. Many businesses have tried to penetrate new markets and have failed.

 

We saw what happened with Target when they tried to come to Canada, come to Quebec and what ended up happening with that. They really didn’t capture how the consumer behaves. They were able to really understand the linguistic aspect of it, but they have to also understand how humans and how they behave in terms of their consumer behavior and all matters related to whatever product or service that they’re trying to promote. So, it takes a deep understanding of the Target market in order to be successful and remain competitive.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Speaking of localizing products and content for Canada, a lot of companies are surprised at the cost of translation for Canadian French. I mean, it’s no secret. Everybody knows that. What is driving that disparity compared to other languages in North America and Europe?

 

Mary Kazamias

Well, I mean, first and foremost, cost of living is one thing. There’s always that. We’re translators that are living and working here. This is not comparable to perhaps translators living and working in other countries where the cost of living is much, much lower.

 

There’s also a disparity or a difference, I would say, in terms of the level of quality that’s expected. Just because the words on the page look like the language doesn’t mean that that’s actually what that doesn’t mean, that it’s good communication, that it’s accurate, that it makes sense, that it reaches the target audience.

 

So, the level of quality that’s expected of a French-Canadian language service provider is much higher than anywhere else or many other countries, at the very least. So that also drives not only a higher price, a higher cost, and does create, as you mentioned earlier, a barrier to entry. If you’re coming into this country, you need to understand that you can’t just rapidly translate in any which way or form the content that’s in front of you and expect it to pass muster. It won’t. It just won’t.

 

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Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary let’s shift our focus from the high level and dig a little bit deeper. The Canadian government has also mandated that certain federal communications must be translated into Indigenous Canadian languages. I would like you to elaborate on this requirement and what does it mean for organizations operating in this space?

 

Mary Kazamias

Yeah, that’s a really interesting challenge. What we’re facing right now is that in a very good and positive way, the government is recognizing that these people also need to be heard, also need to be spoken to and communicated with in their language. So super important.

 

Basically, what happened to Quebec all these years ago, decades ago, is now finally happening for these First Nations. And the issue is that there are a lot of languages. It isn’t just one. It’s many, many and many sort of variations of those languages with a very limited pool of resources who can actually create that content or translate in that content. So, it’s creating a real challenge in terms of supply and demand. And that’s really not going to get any better any time soon.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Let’s briefly chat about the size and availability of resources in the localization market in Canada. How do you see that and what should a typical language services company know about that in Canada or one that is planning to operate in Canada?

 

Mary Kazamias

In terms of the overall size, there’s thousands upon thousands of translation services providers, large, medium, small, not even including all of the individuals who operate independently as freelancers. So, there’s a huge amount of supply.

 

However, the demand keeps increasing on a minute-by-minute basis, which is a great problem to have. But as we are becoming an aging society, as the volumes are increasing, it’s creating a real challenge to be able to keep up with that.

 

Fortunately, there are also technologies that are helping the language industry that I feel we should be embracing so that we can keep up with that demand. The challenge anyone would have come here and setting up shop in terms of an LSP is ensuring that you have the right caliber of linguists. And for us as a translation company, we’ve always been a really attractive employer.

 

But we can’t deny the fact that as an aging society, we have to constantly be thinking of the next generation. We have to be constantly thinking of how we recruit and train and really, really encourage the younger generation to enjoy this industry and find their place, find their footing in this industry.

 

So, any LSP that’s starting off today, I would say, you know, work with universities, and get set up so that you can ensure that your pool of talent is diversified and is also thinking ahead. Think of the future.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Back to indigenous languages, Mary, what are some of the challenges related to Canadian and indigenous languages?

 

Mary Kazamias

I honestly think that the greatest challenge is really about supply. There’s also the question of availability times of the year that are, you know, in terms of the different First Nations cultures, that there is less availability than others at certain times of the year. It’s not the same as what we would consider, you know, the regular business hours and schedules.

 

There are also other challenges in terms of quality control. We’ve been told many times that individuals who are within the same group, the same culture, language, the type of quality control that they would be doing would, in fact, impede on their relationship and not be seen as positive feedback. So, it’s a really different approach to translation, translation processes. And so, we as LSPs need to understand what that market needs and requires and adapt to that and not try to force it the other way around.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Canada is a continuously growing nation. Our population is increasingly becoming diverse with immigration from all corners of the world. How does that impact our economy? What does that cultural richness and diversity mean for organizations and enterprises in Canada, Mary?

 

Mary Kazamias

Well, you said it, it’s richness. I think that the government’s move to take on more immigration will have a positive impact in every sphere. Yes, there will be an integration process and there are costs associated with that. But by the same token, as I mentioned before, there’s aging population in Western society that no one can deny. There is a labor shortage in pretty much every industry. Some are worse off than others, obviously. There is a question also of, there’s strength in diversity and diversity, neurodiversity, cultural diversity, linguistic diversity. So, in doing that, in putting forth those policies to make Canada more diverse, we’re certainly going to be a much stronger nation.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Compared to other countries, we don’t have any unicorns or language pioneer companies here in Canada, despite the advanced bilingualism nature for people. Mary, why is that? What is stopping Canadian companies to grow and become mega MLVs?

 

Mary Kazamias

You know, that’s a really interesting question because I’ve always asked myself that. What is it about Canadian culture that prevents us from maybe being as bold as some of our, let’s say, counterparts in other countries? And not to say that there isn’t innovation. There’s constant innovation here in Canada. In fact, there’s a lot of innovations going on in our own industry, but it’s hidden or it’s masked in some way.

 

So, I think that what we need to do as a society and certainly in our industry is to be proud of where we are now, but also be more bold. And I’m putting myself in that bucket as well. In translation, specifically translation localization, we’ve been taught from day one that a good translation is an invisible one. So, I almost feel like if we take that paradigm shift and we completely change it, we look at what we’re doing as a service, what we’re doing as innovators. We should be proud of that. And then from there, we’ll see all of these businesses shining and some unicorns will finally come up to the surface instead of hiding in the shadows.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary, do you think Canadian language services companies like yours or the other ones in our industry, do you think that LSPs are at a disadvantage because there’s not a lot of resources for them to grow locally and globally? How can we address this gap if it exists? And would having more resources in the form of industry support for language services companies help these Canadian companies achieve more growth and international recognition?

 

Mary Kazamias

I think it goes back to, again, you know, this notion that maybe we’re too humble. Maybe we’re not loud enough. And I think associations, language associations are important, and their mission really needs to be about making our industry visible. Because for the time being, as far as I can tell, the only time anyone talks about translation and localization is when there’s changes in regulation. And we won’t go into that, the noise of that, the Bill 96 has caused, but we really need to do something about our image as an industry. If we don’t, then we’re going to get very little resources, very little funding, very little support as a whole from the government.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

As an extension to that question, let me follow up. There is a lot of support or voice for companies that are government facing and in other words that are continuously selling to Canadian federal government or provincial governments. But those that operate within the enterprise space, they have their own unique challenges and their own unique issues that they have to overcome. And there’s really no forum for them to discuss that within Canada. That’s why some of them are working with American and European associations to see if they have similar issues. Do you see an opportunity there where we could come together and create something that addresses the fast-growing enterprise market translation market in Canada?

 

Mary Kazamias

That’s music to my ears. And in fact, Sultan, I think that that’s something that is there, is a gap there. I think that our industries, our industry associations do touch on that, but we need to definitely put more emphasis on the LSP’s that service private corporations, which is, I would say, a huge proportion of us. Not to say that, you know, when you work with government entities, that that’s a negative thing, quite the opposite.

 

But federal, provincial agencies and corporations, businesses do have different realities. And so, as language service providers that comes with a different impact, a different impact on pricing, a different impact on overall requirements, you name it. And perhaps the forum is here today between the two of us. But I think that we need to as LSP’s, as leaders in our industry to really come together and push the notion that all LSP’s are not created equally. That is true, but that we all have specific needs that need to be fulfilled. And we need to not forget that there are different parameters, different criteria when you’re working with private enterprise.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

I agree with you 100%. I think there’s an opportunity for us to address these specific issues and challenges. And I’m not sure what the format will be, but that opens up another debate. And in any case, let me actually follow up on and continue asking about how Canadian companies can be supported. And given the dominance of language related issues here in Canada, in your opinion, are there programs and support services from the Canadian government that would enable companies offering these services to grow and prosper?

 

Mary Kazamias

To my knowledge, there aren’t that many programs or support services from the Canadian government. But this is not my area of expertise since that, as an organization that has been operating for 35, 36, 36 years, actually now.

 

The support has been really around any type of internship programs. There are tax credits for certain things that organizations can request support for certain initiatives. And there’s also, if I’m not mistaken, different types of funding for innovative projects that you may have. But at the end of the day, the information is fuzzy, and it’s not centralized.

 

And so, there is definitely a need. If I’m the one telling you that it’s not clear even to an organization as large as ourselves, we’re 350 people and we’ve been around a long time and the information is not clear. It’s not readily available. So, there’s another need that we need to fill.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

100%. Mary, for international clients that are interested in entering Canadian market or growing here, what are your thoughts and advice for them? What would you tell them to do differently?

 

Mary Kazamias

Well, do your research, get to know your market. Why are you coming to Canada? And then speak to organizations that are established here, LSPs that are established here for a long time and really interview them and try to see what it is that they’re doing to help those international companies come here. Help them navigate the regulations, assist them in understanding how they can roll out their language communications, whatever that may be, depending on the type of service or product that they plan on offering. And really help them understand what the culture is like and what they’re going to need to start with.

 

A lot of customers will come to you and say, I don’t even know where to begin. So, number one, get to know your market and do that by interviewing organizations like ours who can help them with that. Help them set up any type of tools, any type of workflows, schedules, all of that that comes with setting up shop here.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

As we reach the end of this conversation, Mary, what would you tell other LSP executives here in Canada in order to grow and prosper in the future?

 

Mary Kazamias

I think that one of the points that you brought up before about associations, I think it’s so important to have this dialogue amongst ourselves and to really understand what each of us is going through and learn from our shared experiences or different experiences. I think that’s something that we need to push forward, and I hope this podcast will help reinforce that. But as LSP executives, leaders, whatever you want to call us, entrepreneurs, really, we need to be able to come together and have these open discussions because our industry is changing. It’s constantly changing. That’s nothing new.

 

But there’s this perception that open AI, chatGPT is basically going to take over the world. Robots are going to take over the world. And I don’t believe that. I do believe that there is a place for us. And it’s really, really important that we all understand what the market drivers are, the dynamics are, what changes in consumer behavior, how those are affecting our industry and what we can do to further create, I guess, what you can call downside protection to use a technical term. Because there’s a value in what we offer. There’s a value in what we’re doing on a day-to-day basis and how we can evolve with the global market is super important for our future. So LSP executives, let’s get together and have a chat is what I want to say.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Mary, that’s all the time we have for today’s episode. I want to give you a big thank you for joining us and sharing your insights on the Canadian language translation market. It was a privilege to have you on the show and to hear your unique perspective on the industry.

 

Your passion, Mary, for language and your experience in the field is truly inspiring. Your insights and advice will be incredibly valuable to people listening to this podcast. And I’m very grateful for the time you took to share it with us. With that, I want to thank you. And I hope to have you back on this podcast in the future to continue this conversation and delve even deeper into the language translation market in Canada and beyond.

 

Mary Kazamias

Thank you, Sultan. It’s been a privilege and I agree with you. I’d love to do a much deeper dive and follow up on all of these things that I am, yes, very passionate about. But I know I’m not the only one. And I think that these conversations are so important. They’re so important for all of us as members of this industry. So, thank you. Thank you very much.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Okay, it’s time for my roundup of the interview and my analysis as to what has been discussed. Canada is a great country and a member of G7 with a strategic importance as the closest ally to the United States and a peaceful and democratic nation that promotes human rights, peace, stability, and measures to counter human impact on climate change around the world. Given this country’s economy and purchasing power, it only makes sense for international brands and organizations to connect with Canadians and access this market. Canadian regulations require bilingual communication across bureaucratic and corporate sectors that operate nationally. As such, Canada is a very unique and diverse market, especially with a prosperous and growing immigrant population.

 

It is important to understand the expectations of people, their identity, laws, and regulations in Canada. Canadian language services companies may also find it interesting and helpful if they started to deliver translation and interpreting services to emerge languages and the immigrant and indigenous population segments which are on the rise.

 

In summary, Canada presents huge commercial opportunities for both Canadian and foreign organizations with the right approach to marketing and communication.

 

Thank you for listening. It was such a great conversation with Mary. I am so happy that I finally got to sit down and have this conversation with her as she brings a very unique and interesting perspective of the language services sector in Canada. I hope you were able to enjoy this interview and learn something that may help you improve your business. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Translation Company Talk Podcast on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or your platform of choice. Give us a 5-star rating for this episode and feel free to suggest any topics or ideas you would like to hear from this podcast in the future.

 

Until next time!

 

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