S05E15: The Role of Language Services in Social Impact and Human Rights

Intro

Hello and welcome to the Translation Company Talk, a weekly podcast show focusing on translation services and the language industry. The Translation Company Talk covers topics of interest for professionals engaged in the business of translation, localization, transcription, interpreting, and language technology. The Translation Company Talk is sponsored by Hybrid Lynx. Your host is Sultan Ghaznawi with today’s episode.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Translation Company Talk podcast. Today we will be speaking about the role of language in delivery of humanitarian services around the world. To speak to me about this important topic, I have invited Lucio Bagnulo.

Lucio Bagnulo is a passionate, experienced, and multilingual professional with a broad and solid background in foreign languages and cultures gained through study and work experiences in different countries. He holds an MA in Translation from the University of Bologna and an MA in Translation and Interpreting from the University of Westminster in London.

He has worked in the language industry in various in-house and freelance roles and currently holds the position of Deputy Director, Head of Translation and Language Strategy at Amnesty International, a role that has inspired his desire to help improve the language industry for linguists, not only in the European Union, but also worldwide.

Lucio is also a member of the European Commission’s Language Industry Expert Group, or LIND as it’s known, and served as co-chair of the Global Coalition for Language Rights from 2022 to 2024. In 2022, he won the Think Global Award for Language Industry Person of the Year and in 2024, he was among the 34 global influencers awarded the Multilingual Media Influencer Award by Multilingual Media Magazine.

Lucio, welcome to the Translation Company Talk Podcast.

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Thank you. It’s really an honor to be here.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

I know we’ve been trying to get this conversation going for a while, but I’m so, so happy that today finally I get to sit down and talk to you. Both of us get to cover something really, important. But before I get to that, tell us about your journey in the language industry. How did you find yourself in the world of translating and interpreting?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Yeah, first of all, I’d like to say that I’m grateful for this opportunity because it allows me to shed light on the importance of translation and multilingualism in ensuring that every voice is heard and understood, fostering justice globally. So, I’m Lucio Bagnulo. I’m the Deputy Director and Head of Translation and Language Strategy at Amnesty International.

 

We oversee translation services to ensure high quality translation from a distributed and wonderful in-house teams and global network of freelancers. And I also lead on the development and review and implementation of Amnesty’s language strategy. As I always say, you know, since I was a child, basically, I was passionate about multilingualism. I tend to say that, you know, there would be no Lucio without multilingualism.

 

Just to give you an idea, I was the kind of kid, but even teenager, who used to run after foreign tourists to try to practice my broken English and French. Then I realized that what I had thought to be an interest in all things foreign, was in fact my strong passion for languages. Luckily, I was able to follow my passion in my studies and started my career in the language industry.

 

I had different freelance and in-house roles until my dreams were answered. In 2014, already 10 years ago, I joined Amnesty International to fill their newly created post of Head of Translation, which later expanded to include the language strategy remit.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

What have been some of the pivotal moments in this industry for you since you’ve joined it? Obviously, I wouldn’t say that you’re new to the industry because from childhood you’ve been involved with languages and that speaks to your passion. What stood out as game changing during your career with languages?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

I think a pivotal moment for me, but I’m sure also for other colleagues and friends, has been the evolution of machine translation and more recently the advancements in generative AI, large language models, etc., particularly since November 2022 with the arrival of ChatGPT, as we all know.

 

These technologies have transformed or maybe are transforming language services, but also, they have raised the level of accessibility. They have raised clients’ expectations, sometimes I would say to unrealistic levels. As Modern MT aptly put it in a recent article, and I paraphrase because I cannot really remember the exact great words.

 

Basically, they said the sheer volume of hype across business and social media has attracted executive attention and often corporate teams that are being asked to apply AI where it makes no sense whatsoever. In scenarios where existing technology is already optimized, what that produces is that actually, all the opposite of what one may think. So, inefficiency, added complexity and cost.

 

So, as I always say, this technology can enhance operational agility for sure. It can lead to cost efficiencies, but it’s also important to keep expectations grounded. So, I would say, you know, that was the pivotal moment, I think, for me, but the industry as in general.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Lucio, I have invited you to speak about a topic that’s very important and sadly not covered as much as it should be. I want you to speak about the role of filling the language gap to deliver better justice for people and better services in the humanitarian space. Please give us a high-level overview of this issue. Where does the language services industry fall short? What is working? What is not working? Who are involved?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Thank you for this question. Well, the language gap is a critical but an oftenoverlooked barrier to justice. When someone seeking asylum, for instance, cannot understand or respond to legal proceedings, they are effectively denied justice. The issue then extends beyond mere translation. It’s about language justice. Ensuring that people’s voices are heard and understood in their own languages, especially in legal, human rights, humanitarian and crisis response, you know, contexts.

 

Globally, language rights are human rights. Yet millions are marginalised due to linguistic barriers. Filling this language gap requires, as I would say, a systemic commitment to multilingualism. Integrating language access into legal frameworks, public services and crisis response.

 

So, by addressing the language gap, we empower communities, giving them the tools to actively participate in decisions that affect their lives, thus delivering more equitable and accessible justice for all.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

To your point, it seems like people, most of the time, can’t raise their voices when they are oppressed and when they have an opportunity, they do. When they have an opportunity, they may not be able to communicate their side of the story. How are we trying to fix that, Lucio?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Indeed, people often can’t raise their voices when oppressed and even when given the chance, they may struggle to communicate. This is addressed by organisations, of course, like Amnesty International, which gathers testimonies on the ground and publicly denounces human rights violations, ensuring that research is then available in strategic languages.

 

For example, a recent report from Amnesty on the unfolding human rights crisis in Tajikistan, we made sure to have key parts of that report translated for the first time for Amnesty in two endangered Pamiri languages. Shakuni and Waki. On other global efforts, you know, I can mention the Global Coalition for Language Rights, of which I was a co-chair for 2 years.

 

The Language Justice Foundation, which advocates for equitable language access, highlighting the right to engage with institutions in a language people fully understand. These vulnerable groups, such as refugees and minorities, for example, remain at a disadvantage.

 

But also, there are other initiatives or programs, etc. Like the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, of course. They provide real-time interpretation in refugee camps to help displaced individuals navigate asylum procedures and initiatives like the Centre for Language Access in the Courts.

 

This ensures the language rights in judicial systems are met by offering interpretation for non-native speakers in legal proceedings for example. I have to say that while these efforts are important, more needs to be done to close the language gap and give people in need a true voice.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Let me ask you a follow-up question related to that, Lucio. Canada, for example, has in its charter that guarantees bilingualism for its citizens who speak English or French, but also it goes above and beyond to accommodate the language needs of immigrants,the indigenous population and other folks.

 

Where do you see, geographically, a demand where a language gap is bigger and there should be more focus and funding concentrated in those areas?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, it’s a bit challenging to identify geographies as such, but I tend to say that more should be done in terms of low-resource languages or some call them long-tail languages because of course there are Spanish, English, French, dominant languages are more present on the web, but that’s also because little investment is diverted or made in other languages.

 

I think it is important also to, when thinking of those long-tail languages, think in a very different non-Western way, because some concepts might not even exist in those languages, so they require a whole paraphrasing or a completely rewriting on certain concepts, etc. So, let’s put ourselves in the situation when someone needs to fill in an asylum form. It’s very difficult and can be very challenging.

 

So, I would say more investment in those languages should be made for sure, so it can touch different geographies really.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Speaking of geographies, we are dealing with localized disruptions globally that result in population movements, forced or not. How has that triggered higher demand for language services.

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, global population movements, whether forced or by conflict, climate change or economic hardship, have certainly led to a sharp increase in demand for language services. A recent data shows that in 2023 alone there were over 110 million displaced people worldwide, with countries like Syria, Ukraine and Afghanistan experiencing significant displacement.

 

Each of these crises brings diverse language needs, as displaced individuals require urgent access to legal, medical and humanitarian aid in languages they understand. So, this demand is evident in humanitarian operations, of course, where language services are crucial for effective crisis response.

 

Let’s think for example of the aftermath of the conflict in Ukraine, organizations had to rapidly scale up translation and interpretation in Ukraine and Russian to support refugees across Europe. Similarly, the Rohingya refugee crisis, has highlighted the need for language support, in minority languages the long-term languages I was talking about earlier, like Rohingya or Chittagonian, to ensure access to vital services.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

We deal with people being displaced due to wars, you mentioned refugees and asylum seekers, obviously, they all need linguistic support on the front lines. What kind of efforts are taking place to make sure they receive quick attention, and their needs are addressed in their own languages?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Yeah, I mean efforts to provide quick linguistic support to displaced people, refugees, asylum seekers, etc. are expanding globally with both technology and human resources playing crucial roles, of course. But humanitarian organizations are increasingly embedding real-time translation and translation services into their frontline operations for example translators without borders, provides on-demand language support in crisis zones, ensuring that refugees can communicate their needs and access critical information in their languages.

 

But also, for example, there are multilingual digital platforms, organizations like the International Rescue Committee, have rolled out mobile apps and online resources to provide immediate translations of essential legal and health information for refugees. On the ground, Governments and NGOs are increasingly also training community interpreters, so we don’t have to forget about that profile, and they train these community interpreters from within refugee population to bridge the language gap.

 

For example, in the Syrian refugee crisis, local interpreters are vital in camps and border areas because they help refugees navigate the legal and humanitarian systems. These efforts are backed up by AI powered translation tools, that allow aid workers to communicate across language barriers in real time.

 

While these technologies aren’t perfect and we have to say that they are not perfect, they are becoming indispensable in scaling up linguistic support for large numbers of displaced people, because they ensure they receive immediate assistance in languages that they understand.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

To that point, I agree with you that especially in the past one decade, I would say technology leaped forward exponentially and it has enabled us to do a lot more compared to what we were capable of doing in terms of helping people on the humanitarian landscape before. I want to ask you about how that helped aid organizations.

 

If you can share some details of the people on the front lines, but also the people needing the help, the beneficiaries or the people receiving the linguistic supports. How did these new technologies help them to communicate and get their message across?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, in recent years technology has transformed how aid organizations communicate in crisis. Organisations like Clear Global or Tarjimly have developed mobile platforms that offer real-time interpretation, allowing refugees and asylum seekers to express their needs to aid workers instantly.

 

For example, in particular, as far as I know, Tarjimly has connected thousands of volunteers with displaced people in need of urgent linguistic support, particularly in regions like the Mediterranean, where multiple languages are spoken among migrant populations.

 

Another example, again, the International Rescue Committee’s Signpost project, as it is called, uses a multilingual online platform to provide displaced communities with up-to-date information on rights, legal procedures, health services in their native languages, and so on and so forth.

 

These tools allow displaced individuals to communicate and receive critical information quickly, breaking the language barrier that could otherwise impede access to aid. I think it is also important to say that artificial intelligence and chatbots are also playing a growing role in this space.

 

Chatbots powered by AI can provide immediate responses to frequently asked questions, for example, in multiple languages, assisting with basic   inquiries related to legal rights, safety, and access to services. And I think even us, in our daily life, we are used now to chatbots, for example.

 

But the good thing, the positive thing, is that this tool offers 24-7 support that a human couldn’t maybe offer, or you would need an army of interpreters to do that. However, while AI helps, and services can reach more people quickly, it is important, I think, and I stress it, that human translators and interpreters remain vital. I mean, they are vital for sensitive and complex communications. Ensuring that AI’s limitations, such as bias or lack of cultural nuances, for example, don’t hinder essential support.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

With the type of linguistic service modalities, for example, translation, interpreting, transcription, or other related services. Lucio, what type do you see to be in demand in responding to the growing need of people who need language services? You just talked about technology and that enables us to deliver services or communication in dimensions that we didn’t think about before.

 

For example, even in the case of generating responses as opposed to translating responses. Where do you see the demand in terms of modalities and what are the emerging modalities, in your opinion?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, the demand for remote and on-site interpreters has grown rapidly, especially in conflict zones or refugee camps, but also, we could see it during the COVID-19 pandemic. Organisations like Doctors Without Borders, for example, use interpreters to facilitate communication between medical professionals and patients in crisis situations, particularly in areas where local dialects and less commonly spoken languages are prevalent.

 

But then I also see legal and document translation services are also crucial, especially again in asylum situations, refugees needing help with immigration forms etc. This has been evident in the series of refugee crises, where translators fluent in Arabic, Kurdish or regional dialects play a key role in helping refugees access essential legal services.

 

I also think that community interpreting and training initiatives are becoming more common. Organisations like the International Rescue Committee are training local interpreters from within the refugee population, as I was saying earlier. This localised approach is essential for long-term support in humanitarian contexts, where understanding cultural nuances is as important as language itself.

 

But then, we also need to not forget transcription services. I think they are in high demand for legal proceedings or interviews, especially in long tail languages, like Tygrinian, for example. While automated transcription tools are becoming more common, and have become more common, they often struggle with these less prevalent languages, necessitating human expertise for accuracy and nuance.

 

And finally, I would say that there is increasing demand for SMS translation. Now, maybe in the Western world, we don’t think that much about SMS. But in other parts of the world, SMS technology is still very much used. And then chatbot localization, as I was mentioning earlier as well, which helps deliver real-time information and support in multiple languages 24-7.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Let’s talk about language access. In the US, that is a very, very hot topic, and so is the case in Australia, Canada, and other countries. Our colleagues at ALC, or the Association of Language Companies are doing a tremendous job advocating for inclusivity in this area. Lucio, where do you see a problem with language access affecting delivery of justice to people?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Good question. Language access is a critical issue not only in justice, but also in areas such as healthcare and education worldwide. In legal systems across Europe, Africa, and Asia, language barriers often prevent refugees or non-native speakers from fully understanding legal procedures, leading to delays, wrongful conviction, or lack of representation sometimes.

 

Similarly, in healthcare, language gaps can prevent people from accessing essential medical services. Or in education, displaced populations often face challenges in enrolling children or accessing learning materials, especially in countries hosting large numbers of migrants and refugees.

 

Addressing these language barriers in justice, health, and education, I think is essential for promoting equity and ensuring that vulnerable populations are not excluded from critical services. The Global Coalition for Language published some time ago, a statement on understanding and defending language rights. It’s a concise but impactful text that clearly illustrates what it means to be deprived of such rights. I encourage everyone to check it out on the coalition’s website.

 

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Sultan Ghaznawi

Let me ask you about the type of content that you see, and your organization sees, that requires translation or language transformation for people to access services. What are the top three or four or five drivers of language services in terms of content and format?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, in addition to what I’ve already mentioned, I won’t repeat, but, you know, legal immigration documents, et cetera. I think what is closer to my day-to-day work, they can be, for example, case files and legal testimonies. For example, these are crucial for organizations, I mean, corporations, for example, involved in litigation or individuals in cross-jurisdictional lawsuits, and, of course, victims of human rights violations to ensure fairness in legal proceedings.

 

But also, in order to publicly denounce those violations of human rights, for example, and also give access to justice. But also, we can think of medical records. You know, these are essential across different scenarios, from translating patient histories, for example, and consent forms for migrants, to assisting international patients seeking specialized treatments abroad.

 

Or ensuring clear communication in health care, I would say it can be really a matter of life or death, never better said, I think, because such a clear communication in the right language is vital. It is a vital use of multilingualism.

 

Then we don’t forget educational materials. Because I think these are increasingly important for students and researchers, whether it’s translating school forms for displaced children or adapting academic papers and research articles for international collaboration and dissemination.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Well, from your experience now related to the type of content that’s driving the need for language services. From your experience, Lucio, what are the top 5 or 10 languages today in demand that we urgently need to provide services for in order to enable people to receive services quickly and speedy justice for them as well?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, if we leave aside dominant languages, as I was saying earlier, I will focus, for example, on languages like Dari and Pashto, following the Afghanistan crisis, for example. These have become quite, I wouldn’t say important, but, you know, more focus, I think, is put on them or needs to be put on them.

 

Tigrinya as well is another one, Rohingya. But I also think that Kurdish is important for displaced population from Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Kiswahili, because in particular, Kiswahili is not, I would say, a language which covers the full Africa region, but it’s widely spoken in East Africa and is crucial for legal support in migration cases, for example. For countries like, you know, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Somalia, etc. So, I would say these ones.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Lucio, the different circumstances that create the demand for language services. There are all kinds of issues related to justice and law and how people are affected. There is oppression forcing people to flee their homelands. But now we also have climate change that presents new types of challenges for people in the form of natural disasters and traumatic events.

 

How does language play a role in delivering life-saving information to people who are on the front lines of these catastrophes?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Yeah. Well, let’s think of a natural disaster. Something like hurricanes, floods or wildfire strikes and let’s put ourselves in the front line. So, those in the front lines need immediate access to evacuation orders, safety guidelines and health resources in their own language.

 

So, misinformation or delayed responses due to language barriers can prevent people from accessing shelters, medical aid or knowing where to go for safety. As simple as that. If we think on the other hand of climate-related disasters, marginalized communities such as indigenous groups or migrant populations are often left out of the communication loop because the languages are underrepresented in public service announcements and emergency broadcasts.

 

The same applies to a multilingual population in urban settings where linguistic diversity is high. For example, you know, we have seen it with the COVID-19 pandemic. Language gaps in public health messaging led to confusion and unequal access to health care services in many parts of the world.

 

Similar patterns are emerging in disaster response, where accurate translation and interpretation services are needed to ensure equitable access to crucial information. This is why multilingualism and multilingual communication strategies are vital for disaster preparedness, response and recovery efforts, ensuring that everyone, regardless of the language they speak, can access the life-saving information they need, really.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Let me ask you a follow-up question. I’m going to ask you a follow-up question related to that. I mean, we always talk about language and mostly in the form of written or spoken language, but we also have other people sharing the same world with us who have disabilities and hearing or with their vision and so forth and in some cases, these folks are from jurisdictions that are outside the U.S. or North America or Europe, and they have their own forms of sign language, their own forms of Braille, for example.

 

Where you are sitting, from what you’re seeing, is there enough being done for them? Because they’re also, in fact, they’re more vulnerable than other people and need information and communication delivered to them and the modalities that work for them.

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Very good question. Very important topic. I think very little is unfortunately done to even meet the minimum. If there is a problem with thinking of multilingualism, many times, I think there is, it’s not a problem, but those people in need are not even seen because, maybe we don’t even think of how difficult their life can be in general, but also in those situations.

 

So, absolutely more needs to be done in that front. And for example, I was lucky enough to recently work on Amnesty language strategy, to review the language strategy. That is something I have put a focus on, but because there was also clear feedback from colleagues interviewed, etc., You know, people with disabilities and access of information to people with disabilities, for example, is key and is a human right as well.

 

So, they shouldn’t be left behind. Absolutely.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

I’m glad to hear that you are thinking on those lines and hopefully we can do more because it’s not just your responsibility, it’s responsibility for all of us to make sure that those vulnerable folks receive information in their languages or in the modality of their languages so they can make decisions for themselves.

 

Switching gears, Lucio, for a moment. Let me ask you about the amount of funding and support that is available for delivering linguistic services for people who need the language access. How do you see funding or lack thereof impacting people’s lives today?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, funding, what can I say? It plays a pivotal role in delivering essential language services. Without adequate financial support, organisations simply struggle to provide timely and accurate translation and interpretation. And this then contributes to leaving vulnerable communities without access to legal aid, healthcare, vital information, etc.

 

The lack of funding basically often leads to delays in assistance as well, miscommunication, loss of rights, and so on and so forth, which I would like to stress reinforces existing inequalities.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

As a follow-up, Lucio, in North America, we have jurisdictions, even in Canada, where funding has been cut off for things related to languages, not necessarily translation. For example, here, there has been a very sharp decline in funding language education for people who are just arriving, new refugees and immigrants, and so forth.

 

As a lack of the ability to learn the languages and consequently speak the language or understand the language, they will not be at the same par as other folks who have been living in this community or shared the community with them. Do you see that as an issue where language access is impacted, people’s rights are violated?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Absolutely. That is a violation of language rights altogether. Because, when I hear these cases, I get a bit angry because I put myself in the shoes of those people. I’m privileged. I’ve studied languages. I’ve lived abroad, et cetera. So, I speak English. This is not my mother tongue. I can more or less express myself, etc. But yet there are some concepts or some things that I don’t feel comfortable expressing in English.

 

I’m privileged, as I was saying. Let’s imagine someone who cannot go to the doctor. You know, cannot express or say to the doctor their symptoms. Or they need to talk to the doctor about the symptoms that their son or their children are experiencing. I mean, to me, that is awful. It’s a deprivation of human rights.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Lucio, let’s talk about the willingness of our industry to support aid organizations such as Amnesty and other nonprofits, and people in need who, when there is no funding available, as we just mentioned. How much pro bono language services are available to aid organizations, governments, law firms, or people in general?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, the language industry, I think, has shown significant willingness to offer pro bono services. Especially when it comes to humanitarian context or human rights. I have to say that also in my field, I’ve been approached several times by companies, but also individuals really offering their language support pro bono.

 

However, pro bono services can’t always meet the full demand, of course. Especially in long-term situations, which makes consistent funding essential for sustained and reliable language access.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Just as a follow-up to that. I know this whole conversation has been about making a case for supporting language access and language services. Why is it more critical today, Lucio, in your opinion, than ever before for all these Western rich civilized nations to come together and support language access, language services.

 

Not just for demographics that are outside these jurisdictions. Who might be coming in and needing support. But also, for their own citizens and their own constituents. Why is it more important today to get funding and support for delivery of language services for them?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Well, I think that we, no matter how some of us are opposed to the thinking, there will be a flow of migration, and we will welcome, for example, in certain parts of the world, our friends from other parts of the world. Once you have this clear in your head, I think the focus must be, okay, how to best make sure that everyone can communicate or can have access to these key services like medical assistance etc., without feeling disadvantaged.

 

I think that is when language access or language support comes into play and funds needs to be allocated. Also, as I was saying in the beginning, this requires not really just people believing in it, but a systemic change. The example you gave me earlier about withdrawing some funds etc., well that is not really the direction that I am trying to explain now, because I think, let’s be honest, we will never have the funds needed at 100% to cover all languages and all requests, because I think it would be exponential, the cost of course.

 

I think we can do more for sure and we have to be open to that and don’t think of language and multilingualism as always, a cost but maybe we should think about it from another angle, like efficiency maybe, by providing access. There will be a domino which has or makes some processes more efficient on the other hand and generate cost efficiencies

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Related to that, recently I was reading that in Germany for example, there are Sri Lankan refugees who’ve come in, very highly educated, but they cannot use their skills to support the community. They end up working in Amazon warehouses where everyone speaks English and they complain that they cannot move forward in society in Germany because of their language disabilities or language problems, if you will.

 

Not knowing a language is also a disability and linguistically speaking, they complain about the fact that accessing language training resources in Germany is so hard given that they need to have a full-time job and support themselves. It becomes very difficult to access those services.

 

I see similar situations here in Canada, although the things are a little bit different here. But overall, to your point, the world needs to invest better because it’s not only in the interest of these new folks but it’s also in the interest of the host communities because they will have taxpayers who will pay more taxes, probably be deliver more services to those communities as doctors, engineers, lawyers and whatever.

 

These people are highly educated, highly skilled. Some of them, we can take advantage of their backgrounds too and I think language enables that. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

I mean of course, it’s a very complex situation but I have seen for example in companies where I also work that, exactly what you have just explained. Maybe when you recruit or you open a recruitment, you see that a certain candidate has key skills and could contribute to exactly what you want, but then you analyze things in the context of the company of the corporation and you say okay but how will this person then interact with all the colleagues if they cannot speak fluently, the working language.

 

That’s a problem, I say a challenge for the recruiter as well, but what I think should happen and I know that it’s more simply said than done, but I think we should really try to force ourselves in that direction, if we identify the skills.

 

I think there needs to be a scheme or plan in place, that allows you maybe through the deduction of certain type of taxes, for example, to provide the language support to that person.

 

Maybe to train themselves or to learn the language support with language courses etc. so that they can integrate the linguistic skills that they’re missing at that time, but at the same time, that will create a benefit because once that person is up and running, more or less, in that working language, the benefits to the company or to the organization will be greater, because they will be able to contribute their skills and at the same time, be able to communicate with colleagues.

 

Of course, there is no perfect solution. I think what matters to me or makes a difference is that you cannot really exclude someone who you know would be great in a certain role, only because you know they weren’t privileged enough maybe to live abroad or to learn the language. Sometimes we have to say that the privilege is not always easy, an easy privilege because you have to go through many different you know moments which can be hard for a human being, and I think you and I can also talk to that.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Absolutely. Lucio, are there examples of linguistic infrastructure set up to deal with influx of refugees or immigrants for that matter or other large-scale situations to address language access?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

I know some, for example I’m of course in Europe, so the European context there is the US Asylum Migration Integration Fund that supports a multi-language assistance to refugees, for example, or the council of Europe, which has developed a tool kit available in several languages to support member states in their efforts to respond to the challenges posed by unprecedented migration flaws, which is what I was referring to earlier.

 

I mean we have to get used to these migration flaws. I used to know the Canada Settlement Services. I don’t know if it’s still in place, but basically it used to assist immigrants and refugees in settling into Canadian society. And then the UNESCO Language and Literacy Programmes, which are, I think, very well known by everybody.

 

And I’m sure there are more, but these are the ones that come to mind.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

Let’s briefly talk about the impact of language access on minorities. Is there a gender disparity with regards to language access and what are the impacts?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Oh my, it is a broad topic that could, I think, easily warrant its own podcast. However, I’ll briefly highlight that gender disparity in language access is a significant issue, particularly for women from minority groups. These women often face additional barriers, such as limited access to education, which can hinder their ability to communicate in dominant languages.

 

I think cultural norms may also discourage them from speaking out in public settings, further restricting their access to justice, health care and essential services. But, you know, I also, when it comes to gender disparity, I think we don’t have to forget, which, you know, is a bit of a tangent from your question. But, you know, gender biases in AI as well. I think it’s very important to become increasingly aware of the fact that gender biases exist in the data, for example, with which large language models have been trained.

 

Because those data are taken from the internet, or, you know, mostly from the internet, etc., . So, we have to be very careful about the language produced by these tools.  So that’s where I think the critical eye of an expert or human expert comes into play, in order to fight against these biases.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

I agree with you Lucio, and to your point that AI delivers as an output, whatever is given to it as an input. There are cases for example, where AI was trained on data from 1950s medical data and it suggested that abortion should not be carried out or in some cases if the fetus is female, the abortion should be performed in certain jurisdictions, which brings all kinds of problems and that means that the data was not up to date or not accurate or someone actually used biased data to train it, so we need to be very careful with that.

 

But getting back to this topic, as an expert in the field of responding to human rights and the humanitarian crisis with language access, how do you see the demand and types of support mechanisms in the next 12 months and beyond.

 

Lucio Bagnulo

I believe demand for language services will continue to be there and may grow, even particularly, in response to ongoing conflicts, climate-induced displacement, and immigration. I think the need for fast scalable solutions, like machine translation, alongside human expertise will increase the demand as well for languages that are currently underserved in the global crisis.

 

As for the applicability of, for example, large language models in these settings, I think we will see what the future holds, or actually, what research holds. In any case, I firmly believe that balancing short-term emergency needs with long-term integration efforts, that will be key to addressing these challenges.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

In closing, Lucio, what is your message for the language industry, how can the language service providers both companies and individuals support urgent and emergency situations across the globe?

 

Lucio Bagnulo

The language industry plays a critical role across all sectors, industries, from humanitarian efforts to legal, social and human rights and so on and so forth. My message to the industry is simple. Language must be recognized as a strategic priority, and it is our responsibility to ensure others understand its importance.

 

Whether urgent crises, justice systems or advocacy, I think language services enable access to vital information, justice, health care and the resources needed for people to fully exercise their rights.

 

As an industry, I think we must not fear change but embrace it. We have always adapted to technological shifts and what we are seeing now, is just the next step in our own evolution, I think. As someone said, it’s not a machine that will replace us, but those who know how to use it.

 

Human expertise then, to me, remains and will continue to be crucial in guiding, refining and applying these tools effectively. I mean, I’ve heard this from different experts, there is no intelligence in artificial intelligence, it’s our intelligence which has created the artificial intelligence.

 

Sorry for the play on words or the repetition, but what I mean is that by embracing innovation and stay adaptable, we’ll show our continued relevance and enhance our ability to make a meaningful impact.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

What a thought-provoking conversation. You’re indeed at the intersection of languages and humanitarian systems support and Lucio, today we learned about this very important angle of our industry, and not many people think about it.

 

I’m sure there was something for everyone to learn and think about. I hope we can do this again sometime and cover an important issue related to today’s topic. With that, let me thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with me and with the industry.

 

Lucio Bagnulo

Thank you very much to you.

 

Sultan Ghaznawi

It’s time for my roundup of the interview and my analysis as to what has been discussed.

 

The world is rapidly changing, and many factors affect people in their own countries as well as in host nations, if they’re displaced by any reason. Language barrier for both people who speak a foreign language and those that are disabled, remains a major hurdle, affecting their human rights, their quality of life and in general and responding to their needs, as Lucio pointed out.

 

We need to become comfortable with the idea that people continue to move around, and we need to build infrastructure and systems in place to ensure we are able to communicate with them, whether that is based on traditional mechanisms, such as professional translation and interpreting, or by leveraging modern technologies such as AI.

 

A focus on less commonly represented communities will help everyone have equal access to services if linguistic tools are available and this is an opportunity for the language services industry. We need to remember that the reason we produce words in a foreign language, is not just to count them and build for them, but also to transform lives through them.

 

Each word that is read has the potential to change someone’s life for good or sadly for bad.

 

What a great conversation. I really enjoyed speaking with Lucio and I hope you did too. Make sure to subscribe to the translation company talk podcast on Apple podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, Audible or your platform of choice and give this episode a five-star rating.

 

Until next time!

 

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